Comments on the agents of moxie :: live: ain't ain't a word (some freewriting on language a...

Elaine thank you for checking in . . . and the the...

2009-11-28T16:45:50.075-05:00

Elaine thank you for checking in . . . and the the wired article is an outstanding addition to this thread.

I am a house blogger (at least that's what I am shooting for). however, I find (and actually hope) that frequently I can not seperate what I do from who I am. "Father of two, with a technical day job" -- for two things.

My style (at least the one I am attempting to cultivate) does harkens back to the college years: There I found the narrative form "en medius res" (sp?) and that things in general have great interconnectivity -- kinda like a tarrantino (sp?) movie.

Again thanks - this was actually kinda a filler, in a way meant to defend my own shortcomings. I will be back on task shortly.

Thank you thanks. & BMoxie BMore.

Right on, JB. I respect the rules as much as the n...

2009-11-28T15:37:50.769-05:00

Right on, JB. I respect the rules as much as the next English major, but I also agree that there should be a place for "aint" in our language. It's all about audience, occasion, and purpose. See this recent Wired magazine article:
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/17-09/st_thompson

Enjoyed your post. Keep it up!

well, I do think adding a linguist to this thread ...

2009-11-08T07:07:01.426-05:00

well, I do think adding a linguist to this thread would be even classier! Anyone? This has been a great discussion. thanks again -- Paul.

As always -- sorry for the poor spelling and typos. jb

Oh man, entire academic careers are made out of th...

2009-11-08T00:56:49.739-05:00

Oh man, entire academic careers are made out of this stuff, I'm just a dilettante. But I do know that I never could have come to an idea like that had I never studied another language. But I am not a linguist either. It would be interesting to hear from a real linguist, a researcher, on this subject. But I do know that of the world's languages, English is the most precise and descriptive. Other languages do things that English can't --Spanish remembers the past more accurately and Italian is spoken in meter-- but I'm convinced that the rise of Capitalism and the rise of English happened symbiotically.

ah romance languages. (now I feel like my blog has...

2009-11-07T21:51:19.449-05:00

ah romance languages. (now I feel like my blog has a little class.) For me, nothing more than the ability to dechipher some simple text in Spanish and French. Because of this, I could never call myself a linguist, nor will I be able to hang with you here.

It is interesting to hear your thoughts on the relationship between culture and language and vice versa. If you ever wanted to expand on this -- "Capitalism speaks English for a reason" -- I would certainly post it as a follow up -- it is a very interesting statement . . . .

Anyway, thanks again Paul; it's an open invitation.
jb

Geez, thanks! I love your point about thought bei...

2009-11-07T16:59:10.635-05:00

Geez, thanks!

I love your point about thought being inseparable from language. I have studied a few languages other than English and have something approaching a comfort level with both Spanish and Italian. I call it a comfort level because true fluency is impossible if a language not native to a speaker.

If you study another language with any kind of rigor, eventually you come to see that translation is better called approximation. Culture lives inside of language and they cannot be separated. English has a present tense that's used to indicate an action happening right now. Spanish and Italian have a present tense, but it can have a fuzzy meaning until it's put into context. Present tense Italian and Spanish can mean recently, right now, or very soon.

It's a subtle difference, but it has really profound implications. Native English speakers have a British and American punctuality built right into the language. There is a slower, less time-obsessed way of life built into Spanish and Italian.

I may be making a a big deal out of this, but it's just one more example of language and culture evolving and reinforcing one another. Capitalism speaks English for a reason.

Great topic. I'll be ruminating over this one for hours!

Paul, thank you for chiming in. I think the fact t...

2009-11-07T14:52:38.179-05:00

Paul, thank you for chiming in. I think the fact that we can even have this conversation is a credit to this: "English is an amazingly flexible and adaptable language. . . ."

And to be fair - I agree with this: "However, there are rules and so far as I'm concerned, the only people with license to break them are people who know them."

You, general, must have at least a basic understanding of the rules before you can "justifiably" (sp?) break them. It's kinda that way with a lot of things; design, architecture, etc. would you say?

My short rant on dogma was directed less at how many of us were raised, and even less at how we were/are taught the language. It was intended more, and though very angularly, to draw comparison with much of the talk we are hearing from the green battlefield. Suprise, huh?

That said -- I do almost believe that dogmatic figures are a necessary component of society, if that makes sense.

I, personlly, took to English more for the analytical aspects. I was fascinated by both the linguistic and critical theory that we got at the 3&4 hundred levels. . . especially around the idea that thought cannot be divided from language. . . . (I wish I would have pursued that more.)

Unfortunatly, and I will admit, my time on this may have come at the expense of learning -- at least in a memorable way -- some of the rules.

Thanks again, Paul. jb.

For everyone: Paul Anatar is a kitchen and bath designer and a talented blogger based out of Florida. You can find him writing here: http://www.kitchenandresidentialdesign.com/

I have an English degree and I went through the Ca...

2009-11-07T00:43:18.157-05:00

I have an English degree and I went through the Catholic school system too. Like you, I'm of two minds with regard to standard/ non-standard English. I tend to fall into step with the dogmatists more often than not though.

English is an amazingly flexible and adaptable language. The language we speak stays completely current with technological change and it does it without the benefit of a central plan or steering committee. It's a stunning achievement when you sit down and think about it.

However, there are rules and so far as I'm concerned, the only people with license to break them are people who know them. There's a huge difference between knowing that "ain't" is non-standard and using it anyhow and not knowing it's non-standard and using it. You know?